Today is Day 5 of the 12 Days of Christmas. This week, in light of it being in the middle of the 12 Days of Christmas, this blog will concentrate on the 12 gun myths of Christmas (or really, of all time).
Today's topic: "Resting your AR15 magazine on the ground will cause a malfunction."
As we get going, let's look at this snippet from US Army TC 3-22.9:
Came across this thread recently and it had me laughing. For real. A lot.
For the sake of clarity, "prone supported" is prone position where an object is used to support the rifle - sand bags, ruck sack, other equipment. "Prone unsupported" can include resting the rifle magazine on the ground.
For the record, the following major tactical schools / instructors teach prone unsupported with the magazine rested on the ground:
Thunder Ranch
Valor Ridge
Tactical Response
Front Sight
CSAT
Pat McNamara
Tactical Rifleman
Ronin Tactics
Warrior Poet
Sage Dynamics - Aaron Cowan
Now, onto the thread, and some of the entertainment.
As one post stated, this thread really shows who does and who does not shoot their AR15's.
THE HOPELESSLY, HILARIOUSLY WRONG (and corrections after in italics)
"I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions.I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it."
Says someone who has never shot that way. Just passes on inaccurate information.
"civilian for life but I was taught by my Father and every other class/training I’ve taken NOT to use the magazine as a monopod.
Iirc- Appleseed teaches that using the mag as a support just creates another point of contact that can throw off a shot."
Iirc- Appleseed teaches that using the mag as a support just creates another point of contact that can throw off a shot."
Now we know where it comes from (Appleseed). 10-1 odds his father never said he should not use the magazine as a rest. 100-1 odds that all of his "training classes" are Appleseeds only.
"I am *not* against using the mag as a support but I'd prefer to use my sling as the support because a) I know how to use it properly (thanks Appleseed!), b) I prefer 20-rd mags when I am prone anyway, because c) I don't want the mag of my rifle to be a leverage/hinge point."
Tell me you've never taken a class outside of Appleseed without saying you've never taken a class outside of Appleseed.
"It really depends on the person. I cannot get low enough in the prone to actually touch the mag to the ground. Too much of a strain on my neck. My 19 yo nephew on the other hand, is as flexible as a noodle and can probably do it."
"It really depends on the person. I cannot get low enough in the prone to actually touch the mag to the ground. Too much of a strain on my neck. My 19 yo nephew on the other hand, is as flexible as a noodle and can probably do it."
Has never been trained to do it. There are ways to make this possible.
"I don't think it would be a significant source of malfunctions. It will change POI, though. I seem to recall it's fairly noticeable with AK pattern rifles."
No, it won't. No, it hasn't caused POI shift in AKs.
"I agree with the poster that stated that if the rifle has an additional point of contact that there is more of a possibility to throw off a shot. I would NEVER use the mag for a monopod for that reason."
Has never tried it. Afraid to. Probably clears rooms by rushing into them, as well.
Supporting with a magazine can cause malfunctions by pushing the mag too far up into the chamber. F course this depends on the rifle and the magazine. You may be able to get away with it. But then again maybe not.
You can also get a bounce similar to resting directly on any other hard surface.
You can also get a bounce similar to resting directly on any other hard surface.
No, you can't - the mag catch largely prevents this unless you ape-slam the mag into the gun.
No, you really won't get a bounce unless you are holding the rifle more delicately than a 5 year old girl.
I am more stable with proper sling tension, support hand placement, and firing elbow angle than getting lower and placing my mag on the ground.
I guess if I could get into a good position with a mag long enough to touch the ground then it would help, but you can form a better position while being higher than normal mags allow.
I guess if I could get into a good position with a mag long enough to touch the ground then it would help, but you can form a better position while being higher than normal mags allow.
No - you really aren't more stable. You are more practiced with your 1907 sling.
There is a reason why resting the mag on the ground is not allowed in service rifle competition.
"The Army's marksmanship manuals have always been a near-desperate attempt to address and correct misinformation, bad advice, and outright bad training practices that get passed on from person to person."
"The truth is that the U.S. military has loads of "institutional knowledge" that's bullshit, despite being in a profession where it's generally accepted that the consequence for stupidity may be death."
THE POSITIVES
Now, before you go on thinking this is a bashing post, realize that poster "cvtrpr" is exactly correct in everything he posts.
"Appleseed is great but their affinity for 1907 era technology may be clouding their judgement."
SUMMARY
Appleseed is good, but it CANNOT be the end of your training.
Military training is better than nothing, but it CANNOT be the end of your training.
Totally agree with your summary. I'm an Appleseeder myself, but Appleseed is just one of the things I do, not the only thing. I've enjoyed picking over your Appleseed posts going back 10+ years- echos a number of my experiences too. Appleseed's a fine thing, so long as you recognize what it's good at and what it's limitations are. It got me off to a good start but there's so much more to learn and to experience outside of that.
ReplyDeleteWhen I attended an M16 Instructor course at Quantico that was put on for the Border Patrol, the Instructors said the M14 could and would occasionally malfunction if rested on the magazine, BUT, and they emphasized, the M16 would not be affected by resting on the magazine. After 20 years of competition (3 gun) I have found that to be true.
ReplyDeleteThere is enough anecdotal evidence floating around that this is where the myth originated. So much so, that I now am all but convinced that this is the origin. Either that, or marksmanship instructors fabricated the excuse because they were taught that way and didn't know why. Which, of course, would have had origins in what is now Service Rifle/CMP/NRA HighPower competition.
DeleteI remember our Drill's in the late 80's telling us the whole, it will cause a malfunction thing (M16A1). The ones we had in Basic malfunctioned when you looked at them, much less fired them. LOL I even remember the handguards falling off one recruits rifle on the range. Could have been his dumb a$$ not installing them right to begin with. But good for a laugh remembering everyone's reaction to that. I rarely use the mag as a support but never had a problem I could relate to doing it.
ReplyDeleteBut I am stuck on resting the magazine will throw your point of impact???? Did I miss something? Last I heard that only applied to items supporting/touching the barrel.