- Safety. And they do this really well.
- Marksmanship instruction
- "History"
That being said, they do some things very poorly - making me question whether I want these people representing the "gun culture" to the public.
The Myths of Appleseed
These inaccuracies are commonly spread by Appleseeders on the internet, in online forums. While the Appleseed website is accurate, many of the members either ignore these things, or think in their exuberance that the program is for everybody and others will not be able to help but fall in love with Appleseed. Sadly, this is not always the case.
1. Appleseed is for everybody
- Nothing is for everybody except Jesus Christ.
- Appleseed is best for casual gun owners, who have been shooting before, but have not really cultivated marksmanship skills from "field positions."
- Appleseed is not good for beginners. I'm not the only one who thinks so.
But Appleseeders openly attempt to recruit new shooters - who have no business going to one.
2. Appleseed is "run what ya brung."
- An example of them saying it (item #10)
- INSTEAD - Bring a semiautomatic box-magazine fed rifle.
- The AQT course of fire is loosely designed around Army training during the M1 Garand era (see pages 67-73). This was a time when the Army was more interested in winning service matches than in tactical training.
3. Appleseed's AQT "was designed for a bolt action"
- Nope. It wasn't. Not in it's current iteration. The old Army / USMC version of the AQT was designed around the M1 Garand - hence the 2-round and 8-round loads on stages 2 and 3. The old 1903 Springfield held 5 rounds - why would the instructions ever say to load 8 rounds?
- Originally, a version of what is now the AQT was designed around the 1903 - a bolt action rifle. But those rules and the timing were different. VERY DIFFERENT (see page 13 of this link for timing differences in 1912).
- Here is Appleseed's Chief Master Instructor ("Nickle" - second in the organization only to "Fred") spreading the nonsense.
- Here is Fred himself making the same erroneous claim!
- Here it is by "SamD" in the Appleseed forum. They actually believe this.
4. Sling up tight!
- Proof here ("if it doesn't hurt, it isn't tight enough" - page 4).
- A counter-point.
- A few more reputable sites that disagree with Appleseed's suggestions on the super-tight sling.
- Correct way, for most shooters, is "thwump" tight. Just barely tight.
5. Rack grade rifle, iron sight training.
"Participants are taught fundamental rifle marksmanship skills that are to allow a Rifleman to be accurate out to 500 yards, with iron sights, standard rifle and surplus ammo."This quote comes from Appleseed's own website. Fred talks about it, too. The Appleseed blog states the same thing.
- BUT -
Most who earn the Rifleman patch do so with scopes and highly tuned rifles. Many Appleseeders online encourage chasing the patch like this. Many instructors keep a highly tuned rifle handy for 'seeders' who are close to 210 on the AQT.
6. Scopes aren't allowed at Appleseed
Fact is - Scopes are allowed at Appleseed. Not only are scopes allowed - but encouraged. True, this breaks from their origins (NRA High Power competitions), but the program has deemed that the scope is not a crutch (while, oddly enough, they say a bipod is a crutch) and is, therefore, welcome.
7. "Gear is secondary to Skill"
While this is true on the surface, it becomes misleading. While gear cannot take the place of skill, the fact is that skillful persons still use gear that is suitable to the task at hand (see #3, #2, and #5 above). If a novice brings the wrong kind of gear to an Appleseed, then they will be at a major disadvantage. This can prove frustrating and counter-productive.
8. The AQT stems from the old military shooting.
While there is some similarity to the Appleseed's "AQT" ("Army Qualification Test"), you need to know that this was never the training in the Army, or any other known military. In the time frame form 1900 - 1950 (or so), the Army used a similar training course of fire.
The USMC currently also uses a similar course of fire for its basic marksmanship "Known Distance" shooting. However, times are different, stages are different, targets are different, and mag changes are different. It is not the same.
In truth, the "AQT" is really a revamped NRA Highpower course.]
Here is a good document on the old military shooting. Eeasy to see where Fred got his targets from.
9. The sling can bend the AR15 / M16 / M4 barrel.
While this statement is true, it is mostly used by appleseeders and others to downplay the effectiveness of the AR15 platform at a distance, and play up to the M14, M1A, and M1 Garand and their abilities at distance.
Nobody questions that the M1, M1A, and M14 are easily 500-yard rifles. But they also experience a POI shift when a tight sling is used. It is a known issue, and happens the same as on the AR15 platform.
To rebut the argument, a separate division had to be created in NRA highpower competition when the AR15 was allowed to compete - because AR15 shooters smashed all the old shooting records. An AR15 is easier and cheaper to make accurate, and with modern ammo, has less drop and less wind drift at long range than the mighty .30-06 and .308.
The Errors of Appleseed Members
These are errors frequently made by the Appleseed project and its over-zealous members, commonly referred to as "Appleseed Zombies."
Here's an Appleseed thread that has almost all of this in a single location!
1. Pile On
When somebody has a less than favorable experience, or suggests things might have been done a little differently, the instructors collude and then rain down in unison on the person on that particular forum. They try to make it look like most people don't share that one person's opinion.
In reality, it is that those Appleseed Instructors don't like that one person's opinion.
Appleseeders would do well to remember the old saying: "Zeal without knowledge is the sister of folly."
2. Can do no wrong / Ego
When they find themselves limited in knowledge, they get arrogant and blame the student for any errors. A good instructor would find a way to get the material across. But then, a good instructor is thoroughly familiar with the material. Appleseed instructors as a rule can shoot well. That does not make them good instructors.
Appleseed is notorious for cover-ups, as well. In instances where they have been proven wrong on forums, they will have site staff delete or remove the offending thread. Internally, they will move or delete nay saying on their own forums. I've also seen them cover up safety issues, too (though these are rare).
3. Act just like "upper management"
Appleseed instructors will be the first to take credit for students shooting "Rifleman" scores. And they will be the last to accept blame for students who had difficulties... often making claims those students had attitude problems (for adults) or maturity problems (for children).
Real teachers don't blame these problems on the students... they learn a little something called "classroom management."
Appleseed instructors teach as they were taught. Some go out of their way to enhance their own teaching ability. Most do not. Their "teach the teacher" sessions and training are woefully inadequate - consisting mostly of additional marksmanship training that is missed out in their self-described "firehose" teaching done in 2-day shoots.
4. "Boys Club"
It is simple - if they like you, you will get all the favors. If not, they will not help you in the least. It's a well known fact that many shoot bosses have a really nice target rifle that has favorable features to shooting well - light trigger, big scope, well-balanced, target barrel, etc.
And they might even let you get a "Red Hat" without shooting "Rifleman" at all - if they like you enough.
5. "100%"
Appleseed folks, online, have a really bad habit of acting out. Especially if what is said about the program is not 100% in favor of Appleseed. This goes equally for those with completely dissenting opinions, as well as those who were largely in favor of what they saw (like me).
I've seen posts praising AS, and then kindly suggesting something slightly different. AS folks "pile-on" without mercy. They criticize the person, and make one of Fred's talking points - usually about the volunteer nature, or good intentions.
This actually leads to my next point:
6. Attack the person, not the argument
Appleseed folks online, when faced with differing opinions (whether 0%, 100%, or somewhere in between), so often attack the individual. Rarely will they address the claims, or the facts. When called on it, they fall back on one of Fred's Talking points (see last error below), or they go back to attacking the individual.
Occasionally, they will ask forum moderators to punish the dissenting opinion(s). From time to time, they will have mods remove threads altogether - either by request, or by being so very uncivil. On rare occasion, they bully (overtly or covertly) bloggers and others into removing printed material about the program. Not me!
Pile-on and personal attacks go hand-in-hand.
Usually, the organized assault consists of:
- Ridicule of and "mudslinging" toward the "naysayer." - often, they make claims of " that person just couldn't shoot"
- Intentional cohesiveness of trying to engage in personal insults and getting the "naysayer" banned from the forum.
- Apparent attempts to have threads removed, if needed.
- If the person raises a valid point, but has not yet attended an Appleseed, this is brought in to question. No room for logic or rationale.
- Sticking to one of Fred's / ASZ's talking points.
7. Can't get along with others in the gun circles.
"Fred" purchased what is now the RWVA range in Ramseur, NC. Nothing wrong with this, but in so doing, he took away one of the few full-range NRA Highpower ranges. HP matches are no longer held there. Along with some other shenanigans, many in highpower circles are eager to stay away from Appleseed and the RWVA.
Additionally, Appleseed's guerrilla marketing tactics have irritated noted firearms instructor Gabe Suarez, and he forbids them from doing so on his forums.
A rare exception was Mas Ayoob - who was complimentary of the program despite not being told properly about the rules at his Appleseed (and consequently shooting from a supported position using his magazine as a monopod).
There are multiple other examples of Appleseed folks irritating range owners, gun enthusiasts, and others that they should be working with... not against.
8. Fred's / ASZ's Talking Points
- Not everybody can shoot Rifleman (but they claim to be able to train them so they can?)
- This is not a marksmanship clinic, it's a history lesson (when the marksmanship part comes up short for whatever reason)
- This is not a history lesson, this is a marksmanship clinic (when the "history" is called for its inaccuracies).
- "That person is just mad because they couldn't shoot "Rifleman"
- This person has never been to an Appleseed, so they just don't get it.
- Shooting "Rifleman" is not the point of the shoot.
- Ego (for adults), maturity (for kids) as a reason they did not shoot well.
- It doesn’t matter that the instructors sometimes suck, they’re all volunteers.(borrowed from pdb)
- It doesn’t matter that some shooters leave the program less confident, our intentions are good. Besides, we only ever hear back from the guys who liked the program, so what could possibly be wrong with it? (again borrowed from pdb)
- "This person just doesn't understand Appleseed" (when all other talking points have been proven wrong).
Appleseed things that just don't make sense
1. Rifle choice.
In addition to the "run what ya brung" crowd, many Appleseeders give really poor advice on what sort of guns to bring. As a rule, a rifle should be a semi-automatic box-magazine fed variety. M1's, M1A's, AR15's, Marlin 795's and Ruger 10/22's are by far and away the best. The M1, M1A and AR15 are consistently used in competitions with similar courses of fire.
2. Equipment choice.
They claim iron sight training, but suggest scopes (heck, most "Rifleman" patches are earned with scopes).
They prefer slings, but do not allow bipods.
They used to poo-poo AR15's and .22's.
Allowing the patch on AQT's shot with a .22? The course was designed around highpower competition.
3. Getting along with others.
They do not get along well with other gun groups.
They do not get along well with many locals.
They do not get along well with the press.
They do not get along well with folks that suggest they improve.
From time to time, they do not get along well with themselves.
Of course, the founder doesn't seem to get along well with people, anyways, and as the head goes...
Post Edit - 3/15/2011 - digging out some old comments and posting them.
Appleseed is a scam designed to line the pockets of a few with $$$. They do this by appealing to folk dissatisfied with "the direction the country is headed". The sad part is how many fools swallow this crap hook, line, and sinker without even suspecting it all simply lines "Fred"'s pockets - along with stroking his ego. No doubt "Fred" fantasizes about being the next Robert E. Lee who will lead his growing army to victory over the Blue Hats. "Fred" makes a promise that is ridiculous on it's face - he'll teach "anyone" to consistently hit a man-sized target at 500 yards with "any" rifle. As anyone who actually spends time shooting knows, this is simply bullshit. Most will NEVER be capable of doing that with iron sights. I'm an avid shooter, and NRA life member. I love shooting. But I detest hucksters and con-artists who use patriotism to peddle horseshit. And yes I've been to an Appleseed shoot in Ramseur and know what it's all about. It's about wasting a massive amount of ammo, while a handful of "instructors" get to feel they're molding future "Freedom Fighters". If you're tempted to go to an Appleseed, save your money and shoot at a buddy's house instead.
ReplyDeletePS - I post as "anonymous" because a few of the slipknots I met in Ramseur seemed a little too into the program, if you know what I mean.
F*** you. You just couldn't shoot rifleman and got p***ed about it. I see it all the time.
ReplyDeleteAnon-
ReplyDeleteI attended the thing twice. At the first, I shot as high as a 221 with a scoped 10/22.
At the second, I did not shoot a single score below 210 (even using 3 different rifles). I shot as high as 238.
You must admit that you are too in love with the program to see it for what is reality.
USAGI, you are a c***sucker! You talk like you know all about us and our program. Come and see what it;s really liek. And I bet I can kick your a** too.
ReplyDeleteWhat a childish response that was.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong, I'm no gun-grabber - in fact, I own several firearms and pride myself on shooting proficiently. But I don't have to join a club of extremists (or at least people who perceive some great danger to our nation) to get the practice or training I need.
ReplyDeleteThe Appleseed website really comes across as a subtle attempt to bring people into some kind of political cause, not to educate people about firearms and their use.
Usagi, I don't know if you are aware of this, but anybody that tells you to sling up for a gunfight, even at 500 meters, is full of it.
ReplyDeleteSeems like you knew this, and they wouldn't listen.
Slings are good for practice, or competitions. But their main combat use is to carry the rifle. Heck, most of the time in combat, a sling will just snag on something or get in the way.
Two interesting comments out of nowhere. Thanks guys.
ReplyDeleteUsagi,
ReplyDeleteI recently came across this article. I also read your other entries on "Appleseed."
Two years ago, if I had read this, I'd be fuming right now. But to be honest, you predicted in advance what actually happened.
With Fred's recent roll call, and the Illinois implosion, I hate to say it, but Appleseed's days are numbered. You, sir, called it. Before anybody else.
I have a story.
ReplyDeleteSeveral years ago my best friend and I both retired from active duty. We decided that we would like to shoot in NRA HIGHPOWER COMPETITON using service rifles. We picked up a couple of off the shelf A2 style rifles and some fmj ammo. We went to our first across the course competition (200-600 yards, 800 possible points).
We did not use slings, did not have shooting jackets, and laid prone on the ground. We did not have match grade barrels, floated handguards, or tuned triggers. When the competition was over the top three scores were 783, 776, 772. The 783 was shot by a high master classified shooter with a match rifle. The 776 was shot by my best friend. The 772 was shot by me. Several other master and high master shooters participated. My friend and I had never shot NRA Highpower before so we were unclassified.
Immediately after the scores were posted a young man with all of the "match" gimmicks and the fancy shooting gear approached our vehicle as we packed our gear. "You guys are cheaters" he said. "How dare you come here and shoot as unclassified shooters." He pointed at my best friend.
My best friend casually stated "We said we never shot this game before. We never said that we didn't know how to shoot. Shut up, put away the fancy equipment, and learn to shoot."
I rifleman is a person who does not engage in arguments, but instead lets the target tell the truth. A hole in the paper does not lie.
I read all the comments and think that you are misguided. I know that anyone can be trained to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards. 500 yards is nothing with a modern rifle that is in good condition. I think that attacking the Appleseeders sounds like a personal problem.
I am not an Appleseeder. I am a retired disabled veteran, a firearms instructor, a concealed carry test administrator, a competitive shooter, and a gunsmith.
Spend more time practicing the art of the rifle and less time worrying about the motives of others.
Thanks for listening.
"Klagt Nicht Schießen"
(no complaining, just shoot)
Thank you for reading, Anon.
ReplyDeleteBTW - I could tell you are not Appleseed. You write in coherent sentences, without unnecessary foul language, and you have actually competed in HP (a fun sport, to be sure).
You say you think I might be misguided. I would really like to know in what way. This in the interest of self-improvement if nothing else.
On the other hand, it would seem you read my article, and comments made by myself and others,a bit out of context. I actually condemn the AS program for claiming "rack grade, iron sight training to 500 yards" when in reality, they only shoot at 25 meters over 90% of the time, and the vast majority of folks who earn the "Rifleman" patch do so with highly tuned specialty guns.
I, for one, was not comfortable to get my patch in such a fashion, so I went a second time and earned it with an unmodified rifle and iron sights. I have shot a 250/250 on the AQT, albeit with an ACOG - but those are standard issue in the USMC these days. I have shot many scores of 245+/250 with irons.
Like you say, I prefer to let the targets do the talking for me in that regard.
As for the comment about the motives of others... I've spent my entire adult life as a successful businessman. Sales is my method of income. Observing the motives of others is an absolute requirement. My readers enjoy the facts I point out.
Worry about the motives? No.
Observe and report, and weigh in? Yep.
You and I agree that most modern rifles are GTG for up to 500 yards. I have shot an AR15 at 600. No special upgrades on it, either.
Spend more time at the range?
Absolutely. Every rifleman needs that. I've only been twice this week with plans to do the same next week.
"No complaining, just shoot" - sounds good to me, wish AS would do that. :)
Hope to see you out on the range. Sadly, I do not get to ND as often as I'd like. (never have been, actually)
Thanks for posting my comments.
ReplyDeleteWe have more views in common than we have in opposition.
I admire a person calling it the way they see it....I cannot admire sheep.
I read some of your other postings...I will visit again occasionaly.
Yes, everyone should spend more time at the range.
Thanks from ND.
Usagi,
ReplyDeleteI can't say where I learned this or how, but you might want to know that there is more trouble afoot in the organization.
Keep your eyes open, these people are not what they seem. More light means more the cockroaches run.
Just want to say your article is as astounding. The clarity to your views on Appleseed is amazing. Not many saw the rotten core of the apple so soon. I can assume you're a professional on the subject not only of shooting, but also of observing personal and group behavior. Thanks a million for spreading the truth that some do not want seen, and please keep up the enjoyable work.
ReplyDeleteThe Appleseed program is just another way to get new people shooting, when ANY organisation is formed it has its biases and its "clowns". The way they sell it is a bit over-hyped but its their take on it.
ReplyDeleteFor Appleseed I would like to see scoped rifles having to shoot at 50m, 25m with a decent scoped rifle is TOO easy.
Also the emphasis on sling usage for new shooters bamboozles me? But I'm glad they don't allow bipod use for the score shooting.
Thanks for reading Matthew. We rarely get visitors from Down Under, so I'm honored.
DeleteYou have some good points... I think I agree with it all.
What a miserable experience I had at Appleseed!
ReplyDeleteNo zeroing of the weapons, just dumping rounds down range. None of the instructors had the slightest clue what they were doing.
The only people that had fun were those with .22s and enormous optics. My iron-sighted M14, which they would not let me zero (there is no zeroing, you just start shooting), and I had a less than optimal experience. If your rifle is not zero'd why dick around with anything else.
My requests to get it zero'd at lunch were denied. I had to listen to the 4th grade history lecture.
I would not recommend Appleseed to anyone.
Anon, thank you for reading.
DeleteSadly, comments like your are far more common than Appleseed allows on most forums. They do a lot of stuff "Bass-Ackwards" and they know it.
Their "instructors" have less time shooting than a white belt has in my dojo to earn their first stripe... much less belt... much less an instructor's position.
I agree 100% that the first part of the shoot should be to zero (or confirm zero). Maybe take Saturday morning to do that part?
By the way - I noticed you are from Indiana. Please email me and tell me who the Shoot Boss was... might have been the same mental midget I think it is...
Deleteusagi.dojo@tds.net
I participated (competed?) at an Appleseed. I learned two things: how to shoot fairly straight, and that what you call "sport shooting" is not for me.
DeleteI like being one of the best on the range now when I get a chance to go shooting. It bothers some men to see a woman shooting better than they can.
One thing you and I have in common, Usagi, is an instructor. I know the one you have spoken of, and he "taught" at the Appleseed I shot at. Let's just say this, the man should not be instructing anybody on firearms. I don't know why Appleseed keeps him around.
Not quite sure how I landed on this page, but wow...just wow...you, Usagi, are not only a flat out liar, but you are just plain 'ol mean. I'm not even going to dignify this with a point by point calling of BS...because you already know, resent, and are made angry by the truth.
ReplyDelete" I could tell you are not Appleseed. You write in coherent sentences, without unnecessary foul language, and you have actually competed in HP "
I can DEFINITELY tell you are not an Appleseeder, sir. This non-cursing-at-you, HP shooting Grandma would like to thank you for making that choice. No, I don't 'compete', so maybe I don't have a valid opinion in your eyes....but having just came from a glorious weekend at an ILLINOIS Appleseed with my family, with shooters and Instructors of all abilities and walks of life, I can definitely say I wouldn't enjoy having someone like you on a firing line with me. You don't get it, and that's fine...Freedom is wonderful. Even the freedom to be a jerk.
Enjoy your HP competitions and that chip on your shoulder, sir.
Thank you for reading, Anon Grandma. Allow me to refresh your memory, you got here via Google search for "usagi dojo blog" at 11:38 Central from an IP address that is labeled "University of Illinois." I hope you aren't on the payroll, and surfing the web frivolously on University time.
DeleteAw come on... gonna call me a liar, but refuse to give even one example??? Meanwhile, I give links, quote Appleseed's own words, and offer proof after proof! Psychological projection, anyone?!?!
I am curious what truth you claim I am resentful of and angry about? While you are at it, to what "chip on my shoulder" do you refer?
And where on this blog post or in these comments do I state I compete in HP? I have competed, but only a few times, and that is not mentioned by me herein as it lacks relevance.
My acknowledgement of the fact, and my credit to you, that you did not swear, and that your grammar and sentence structure was acceptable.
Also, I've seen a couple of times, directed at myself and others, claims of "you don't get it." Why don't you enlighten me, so that I might enlighten others? Fair?
The fact that you haven't competed does not in any way sway my opinion of you. The fact, however, that you willingly associate with Appleseed in Illinois, after what happened there, tells me volumes about either your character or your lack of judgment... not sure which at this point.
Nevertheless, have a wonderful day. Thanks for reading. Let me know when you are ready for real gun training, I have many friends in IL (most of them former Appleseed), who have a LOT to offer a fellow student of the shooting arts.
Peace!
Nope, sure wasn't on the payroll. We do have internet access on our lunches, breaks, etc...and are allowed to use our emails, etc on private time. Yep, I was geographically at the UI. Congrats on your ferret-work, though, and yet another small, mean comment...Cyber-stalk much? I really liked the insinuation about me not working....what a great reminder of why not to try and debate somebody on 'teh Interwebz'.
ReplyDeleteI have probably already met many of your acquaintances in Illinois, as I am pretty involved in several organizations. I also make it a point not to slam any of them, even the ones I think aren't my cup of tea. I certainly wouldn't insult someone's character and judgement for being passionate about and involved in ANY shooting organization. Do you feel better having insulted me? I hope so; you strike me as needing some happiness. I'd like to thank you for the lunchtime chuckle...and I'll leave you to your hatred, Sir. Your posts have been an interesting read.
Grandma
No "insinuation," Grandma... R(eading) I(s) F(undamental). I stated that I *hoped* that wasn't the case. Based on how defensive you are... hmmm, makes one wonder.
DeleteOh, and no cyberstalking... :)
I have this nice little widget called a Feedjit stat tracker. Two clicks and I can see all pertinent information on a visitor, including keywords used on Google, as well as IP addresses and names.
It is over here, on the side of the blog --->
" I also make it a point not to slam any of them"
Me too. However, when an organization is so openly hypocritical, and poses a threat to the gun culture, it needs to be outed. I have stated fact about the organization and opinion about training methods. That is not slamming.
"I certainly wouldn't insult someone's character and judgement for being passionate about and involved in ANY shooting organization."
May I offer in rebuttal: "You may know a man by the company he keeps." (old proverb)
" We do have internet access... on private time."
"Congrats on your ferret-work, though..."
" I really liked the insinuation about me not working...."
"No, I don't 'compete', so maybe I don't have a valid opinion in your eyes...."
- These are examples of being psychologically defensive.
"and yet another small, mean comment..."
"...you strike me as needing some happiness."
"you, Usagi, are not only a flat out liar, but you are just plain 'ol mean."
- These are examples of psychological projection.
If you are being defensive, and projecting... and coupled with the fact that you intentionally Googled my blog... add on the fact that YOU CAME BACK!!! - It tells me that you were warned what you would find here. It also explains the seeming lack of reading comprehension.
I would presume one of two things: either you've been with AS for a long time... in that case, every "insinuation" is truth, you know it, and that is why you use psychological defense mechanisms.
OR
You are new to the program and simply have not done your due-diligence, hence the psychological defense mechanisms.
Therefore, I have two questions for you:
1. Did you sign the oath?
2. Do you really know what happened in IL?
If you answer "yes" to both, then I am truly sorry - it is you who are the one needing happiness.
If you answered "no" to one or both - there is hope. Do some research. You can read what I've written, or from others. The facts are the same regardless of the non-Appleseed source. Shoot me an email and I can provide outside documents and links not even included in the blog here.
In either event, please have a wonderful day. I wish you far more happiness than you have expressed so far. :)
Again, peace, my friend!
Mr. Usiagi,
DeleteI think you have hit the nail on the head again with Grandma here. Hate to say it, but I've been in her shoes, too. Your advice is sound... sooner or later she will wake up from the Appleseed hypnosis, and then she'll have some tough decisions to make.