In Closing
A year ago this week (September 4 & 5, 2009), I attended an Appleseed Shoot. I enjoyed it, and learned a lot. I also saw some things that rubbed me and others the wrong way.
I went back in May 22 & 23 this year. Again I enjoyed it. I learned actually a lot more (though it was from an instructor's point of view more than a student's). Again, I observed some things Appleseed does that should be rectified. And this time through a more refined and understanding point of view.
Like any other program created by man, it has its benefits, and it is not perfect. I am never afraid to go "on the record" about something, and Appleseed is no different. As with any program, it is not for everybody - even though they don't always see it that way.
Like so many other things, this is a "good ol' boy's club" and they act accordingly - be aware of this, in case you dislike that type of organization. Conversely, for those who are looking for that type of association, and who want to be around like-minded folks, there are many who really enjoy the environment.
In the end, it's been an interesting ride. I've heard from many in the program. I've shared emails, phone calls, communications with fellow students, instructors, and even a few high-level people. I was an "Instructor in Training" with them. I decided to distance myself from them. Everything in between.
This will be my last post on this blog about the subject, unless a reader specifically requests an entry. Even then, I may just respond in private to save the headache. Here's a brief summary of my thoughts on Appleseed:
PROS:
1. Appleseed does a great job with safety.
2. Appleseed will teach you the fundamentals of "field position shooting."
3. Appleseed is relatively inexpensive, and even free for some people.
4. Shooting can be done with a .22 - keeping cost and discomfort low.
5. Their instructors are passionate about the program.
6. They teach some history you likely did not learn in school.
7. Appleseed instructors, in general, can shoot well.
CONS:
1. Appleseed teaches some practices (example - mag changes) that are contrary to modern fighting doctrines.
2. Appleseed relies too much on sling usage, and not enough on proper body mechanics for shooting.
3. The program has a mentality that the "Appleseed Way" is the best / only way.
4. The program has some connections that some people find dubious.
5. Senior leadership is reluctant to accept constructive criticism.
6. Some shoots have not made exceptions for physical impairments, despite the programs' claims to accommodate.
7. They can be somewhat misleading to prospective shooters.
Let me elaborate more on "# 7" - the program being somewhat misleading. This is a two-part situation. On one hand, the published information on the program "suggests" the right thing - but does not make all of these things "mandatory." On the other hand, the folks from Appleseed are all over the gun forums, and will give poor / misleading advice to shooters asking what to bring / expect, etc.
1. Bring the things they say to bring.
2. Bring a semiautomatic rifle.
5. Don't use the program as an intro to shooting - for you or a friend / loved one.
6. If you really want the "Rifleman" patch - play the game.
1. Make it a requirement to bring a semiautomatic rifle.
1. Equipment & Course of Fire:
Appleseed was based on high power shooting, as evidenced by Fred in his "How to Become a Rifleman" series. High Power shooting is done:
A. From field positions (Standing, Sitting, Kneeling, Prone).
B. With time limits (10 minutes standing; 60 seconds sitting; 70 seconds prone; 20 minutes slow-fire prone).
C. Without equipment, other than sling, glove, shooting jacket.
D. Using "service" rifles - M1, M14 (M1A), and M16 (AR15) - modifications are strictly limited.
E. At targets ranging from 100 yards to 600 yards away.
Appleseed is "scope friendly" (their words). Additionally, it is no secret that they really push the use of the GI sling as a shooting aid. Yet bipod or other rests (unless they are shooting at real distances) are not permitted. There is no logic here. And it seems that Appleseed once allowed bipods to earn the Patch, further confusing things.
Rifles of all sorts are allowed at Appleseed. They encourage .22 rifles like the Ruger 10/22 and Marlin 795 (both excellent Appleseed rifles). It is understandable to allow .22's, but since shooters are really handicapped with bolt-actions, pump-actions, and single-shots, why allow them? Make it semi-auto only... with an exception of certain bolt actions once the shooter shoots a "Rifleman" score.
As this person on www.ar15.com writes, "So two pieces of equipment, the sling and the scope, are vital, but the bipod is a crutch?"
The vast majority of folks who shoot "Rifleman" scores do so with tricked out 10/22's and big scopes. Nothing wrong with that, and it still requires skill - but as a person who can shoot the score (with and without optics, with and without a centerfire, at will with any setup), I tell you there is a huge difference in shooting the score with a tricked out gun and large optic.
A simple fact of our modern world is that we are able to use technology to overcome imperfections. Why not use simple, inexpensive pieces of equipment to assist in shooting - especially for beginners?
2. Self defense vs. sport shooting vs. field shooting.
Appleseed was based on high power shooting, as evidenced by Fred in his "How to Become a Rifleman" series. High power shooting is a sport. It used to be military training, but is no longer - save basic rifle training in the USMC.
But, many Appleseed instructors talk about how the skills transfer to self defense. That is true to an extent. About as much as "Tae Bo" is useful for training to fight (some basics apply, not very much else).
In real combat, consider a situation, that a rifleman could sling up, go prone, take aim, and shoot a target at 500 yards. Now tell me why he couldn't open up a bipod (or rest his rifle on his rucksack) instead of slinging up, and use it (likely to an even greater effect!)?
The simple fact is that sling shooting is best used in competition or practice - not in combat. And Appleseed relies on shooting with the sling... almost to the point of ignoring the simple fact that NPOA exists without the sling.
Similarly, one can easily find props for shooting while sitting and kneeling in combat. If not, then the sitting or kneeling shot probably should not be taken.
I challenge readers - especially Fred and his Appleseed cohorts - to give a real example to the contrary. If they even can, I predict it is likely to be a very unusual scenario, requiring many circumstances to fall in line correctly.
So, Appleseed instructors, in the face of this evidence, will say that the program teaches "field shooting" and the focus is on fundamental marksmanship. These statements are correct.
3. "Riflemen" ???
Here is a thread (and here's another) where a High Power shooter offers Appleseed "Riflemen" a chance to try their skills out at a real distance.
What happens?
Do they accept? (Nope.)
Are they scared? (Possibly - I don't know.)
What do they do?
Put down the person, pile on, and generally make their own program look bad.
So much so that the Appleseed's Chief Master Instructor sends out a message.
PS - yet another offer...
Also, it is well known amongst Appleseeders and their instructor corps, that most folks who have earned a "Rifleman" patch, have done so with highly modified rifles and using scopes. While it is still not easy to earn the patch that way, what has happened is that they have instructors who cannot shoot the score without the highly modified rifles and special equipment.
Some of these instructors do not know how to help students make sight adjustments. Some of these instructors have not or cannot shoot the score with a centerfire rifle, or with iron sights. Many instructors cannot consistently shoot the score, even with the tricked-out .22's!
As a matter of personal pride, the first thing a "Rifleman" patch owner should do is to shoot a 210+ with a centerfire rifle of choice. Preferably an M1, M1A, or AR15. Iron sights.
4. "Hit a man-sized target at 500 yards"
Very few Appleseeds actually shoot at real distances other than 25 meters. Very few of the instructors know much about bullet drop, wind, etc. Sure, they know "inches, minutes, clicks" - but they do not know how many inches a bullet will drop over a given range.
To be fair, it would be quite a feat for a regular person to commit to memory all bullet trajectories. However, Appleseed instructors should, at the very least, know the drop for "mil-spec" ammo out of the M1, M14, and M16/M4 family of rifles with USGI or comparable ammunition.
A common retort that Appleseed Zombies will give when confronted about the lack of real distance shooting is: "well, if you can't hit at 25 yards, you sure won't be able to hit at a real distance." While this statement is true - it is also a very obvious attempt to cover this weakness in the program. And it does not address the fact that most Appleseeds do not shoot out to 500 yards.
Sadly, there are a number of "Riflemen," IITs (Instructors in Training - "Orange Hats"), and even Red Hat instructors who have never shot past 100 yards. How can you teach someone to "shoot to 500 yards" when you've never done it yourself?
Much has been written about the Appleseed "AQT" (Army Qualification Test). Much myth has come up around it. Fact is, the Appleseed AQT is not in use by the Army, and never was. Fact is, even the USMC's Known Distance ("KD") shooting has substantial differences. So why the AQT? And where did it come from? And why is the scoring the way it is? And why is "Rifleman" set at 210?
"Fred" is the creator of both Appleseed and the Appleseed AQT. While the AQT is certainly an amalgam, with several points of influence, when one takes all facts into consideration, it really becomes quite clear. "Fred" was never in the USMC. He states that he was in the Army, and given the timeline, he would have shot a COF substantially different to what the AQT is. It would have more closely resembled the current "Trainfire" type shooting - targets at 50 - 300 meters, that pop up. 40 shots, total.
Course of fire:
"Fred" was, however, an administrator for an NRA Highpower range, and was a highpower shooter. The Appleseed AQT draws very heavily on the HP course of fire - hence the four stages and the nearly identical timing.
It would seem "Fred" borrowed the Army Alt-C silhouettes, and cut them off for a "head and shoulders" effect. The similarity is astounding. However, almost no other element of the AQT seems to borrow directly from the military. Instead, it borrows more directly from highpower competition rules.
Timing:
NRA Highpower stages are timed as follows:
Standing (slow) - 20 minutes
Sitting (rapid) - 60 seconds
Prone (rapid) - 70 seconds
Prone (slow) - 20 minutes.
Appleseed stages are:
Standing (slow) - 2 minutes
Sitting (rapid) - 55 seconds
Prone (rapid) - 65 seconds
Prone (slow) - 5 minutes.
It is fairly obvious that in order to shorten the clinic, "Fred" chopped the slow fire times down a bit.
Scoring:
As for the AQT scoring, let's go back to NRA Highpower to find the real inspiration. In HP competition, the "black" area contains the 8-ring, 9-ring, and 10-ring (which, in turn, houses the x-ring). On any given shot, the maximum, score is 10 points. Anything in the black is at least 80% of that point value.
Notice that on the AQT, any shot in the black is at least 80% of the possible point value. The targets happen to be silhouettes that represent a man-sized target at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.
NOTE: If a shooter places every shot in the black on the AQT, the lowest possible score is 200.
That's important to know and here's why: "Fred's" first incarnation of the AQT is four large sheets of paper. One sheet each for 100 yards, 200, 300, and 400:
- There is still only a single 100-yard target on page 1.
- There are five 200-yard targets on page two. Each is to be shot twice.
- There are five 300-yard targets on page three. Each is to be shot twice. There is also a "sighter target" which may be used to sight in with two shots.
- Page four has ten 400-yard targets, and a sighter target. Each is to be shot twice.
On this original "Fred" AQT, the rifleman standard was 80% - or 200 points out of 250. Or, put this way - keeping everything in "the black" on a similar COF to NRA Highpower.
But why 210?
Easy. Shooting at four sheets of paper is cumbersome, so "Fred" consolidated the "AQT" into a single page. This took out some of the NPOA shifts, so he decided to raise the score needed to qualify - in an attempt to take luck out of the equation. He says this in "Fred's Guide to Becoming a Rifleman."
How did the number 210 come from it? We do not know for sure, but an easy possibility goes like this:
The difference between shooting a 200 and a 210 would be to make at least one "5" point score on each of the QDAQT's targets instead of "just" a 4.
As quoted here:
And here:
To sum up:
1. They have a good idea.
2. There is some suspect packaging - some might say "eclectic" - they should work to remove it.
3. Accept criticisms!
4. We are all in this together - work with the rest of us - not against us!
You will be hard pressed to find many objective things written about Appleseed online. You'll be harder pressed to find negative things written about them. Despite the moaning of the Appleseed Zombies, what I write is not negative toward the program. I offer pros and cons, and even suggestions for improvement.
If I wished the program ill-will, I'd suggest people not go. I'd say bad things about them. I'd generally leave it alone after a while.
But you won't see many others write like I do on the internet about Appleseed. Generally, this is due to just a few broad reasons:
1. For most who attend, Appleseed is their only formal training.
These people are not about to "bash" (or do anything remotely close to it) a program that is the only formal knowledge they have. This results in these people not being able to see the forest for the trees. They wouldn't be able to critically analyze what they do for the life of them.
2. Appleseed is their "boy's club."
I've seen this is martial arts time and time again. In the martial arts, you have a black belt who has a rank, and that rank means everything to this person. They define themselves by this. Appleseed is no different. There are "ranks" ("Rifleman," "IIT," "Red Hat," "Green Hat," Master Instructor") that can be earned. Some of these ranks come with little or no improvement in physical skill, but earn the owner additional "respect" of the other members.
3. Folks who didn't enjoy it are not gun nuts.
This is by far the largest group. At the first Appleseed I attended, I spoke with nearly a dozen people who did not particularly care for the program. A lot of them have been turned sour to shooting. These were largely the people who were new to shooting. These people will not be on gun forums. They aren't getting online and talking about it at all.
The folks that were already into shooting, and enjoyed it (as I did), will migrate eventually to group #1 or group #2. There are a very few of us that look at things objectively and do not fall into either. There are a very few others that enjoy guns & shooting, but did not like or particularly care for Appleseed, but examples of these people are rare. I know of a handful at best.
4. Appleseeders who feel as I do, but cannot speak out.
This group is larger than you might think. I've been in contact with literally hundreds of Appleseed instructors (mostly IIT's, and a few Red Hats) who communicate with me that they feel as I do, but know they cannot change the program.At the time of this edit (2/17/2011) Appleseed claims over 1100 instructors - and I have spoken with nearly 20% of them to one extent or another - the vast majority of them feel as I do.
Some of these folks run their local Appleseeds differently.. .and for the better. Some of them are like me - perpetual students, always looking to perfect their craft. Many of them were initially put off by some of my comments, but then saw things as they really were.
Appleseed does many things right. Here they are:
1. Appleseed helps get Americans off the couch.
Cheap, easily accessible training are two major advantages Appleseed offers, compared to most firearms training.
2. Appleseed Teaches history.
Sometimes they get the history largely correct. Sometimes they take artistic license. It's all better than what is taught in most schools these days.
3. Appleseed is cheap.
Yes, NRA High Power clinics are often cheaper. But still, $70 is not a lot for a weekend of training. Martial arts seminars are often twice that price. Other types of training in other disciplines are comparable, or frequently higher.
4. Appleseed is easy.
Yes, many people complain of the physical demands. Most of these people live sedentary lifestyles. Neither my wife, nor myself experienced soreness or exhaustion, and neither of us is in top physical shape. However, compared to a weekend martial arts seminar, the activity is very moderate.
5. Appleseed is safe.
Safety is their primary concern. They have safety steps that, when followed, allow for several levels of failure before there is actual risk. The overwhelming majority of their instructors keep safety as the first priority, and when dealing with firearms, that is OK with me.
6. Six steps to firing the shot.
The six steps are fundamental. As Appleseed teaches them, they are correct and necessary for accuracy.
Despite their insistence, Appleseed passes along several critical errors to shooters. Because none of the errors are in the safety arena, they can be overcome at the sole expense of convenience.
1. Sighting in.
Appleseed has students sight in from unsupported prone. NRA Masters and High Masters can do this. Folks who have never taken a training class before cannot.
Sighting in should be done from a fully supported position, so as to take the human element out of it as much as possible.
2. Overuse of sling.
The sling is a good shooting aid. Its practical uses are limited to competitions - usually NRA High Power, CMP matches and smallbore matches. The last documented use of a sling in combat was WWII, and even then, there is only one such documented instance.
Recreational shooters with access to ranges that allow field positions can also use the sling. However, AS instructors often cite "the ability to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards" as one of the skills taught. The obvious insinuation is that sling shooting makes such shots practical. This, while technically correct, is misleading in its intent.
3. Field positions.
The field positions, as taught, are highly impractical for any shooting other than competitions, or recreational target practice.
Practical shooting from standing is done while on the move, usually to get the enemy to take cover so that you can move from one place of cover to another.
Practical shooting from sitting is actually the closest that Appleseed comes to practical. This is for shooting targets from about 50 yards up to 150-200 yards.
Practical shooting from prone is done from a support - rucksack, bipod, or other rest should be used for long distance (over 200 yards). Unsupported, unslung prone is very useful on targets 75-200 yards away. AS dismisses unslung prone shooting, and this is a mistake.
4. Magazine changes.
NRA High Power, Smallbore, and similar competitions keep the same format as Appleseed - fire 2, mag change, fire 8 - on stages 2 and 3 of the AQT. The USMC used to do this, too. In 2005, the USMC changed the Known Distance (KD) course of fire to allow Marine recruits to fire 10 straight from a single magazine in the second and third stages.
Why? Because mag changes should not be done with the trigger hand! This was confusing Marine recruits who, when finished with the basic KD course, would go to infantry school and learn tactical magazine changes - which are done with the support hand.
5. Reluctant to change.
As discussed before, the Appleseed leadership is reluctant to change. In a changing world, this is a death-sentence.
6. Practicality.
The field positions, mag changes, time limits and other factors are all proven to be counter-intuitive to actual practical defensive shooting. Add in the fact that sighting in is done incorrectly, and the cult-like following of the organization. Add to that how they hold up the "Rifleman" patch, and it gets new shooters thinking they've got a "Jedi Black Belt" in shooting, when many of them have a hard time rolling off the couch.
To add to it, the shooting is done predominantly from 25 meters. To be sure, hitting a 1" square at that range is no easy matter. However, there are many more things (wind, mirage, gauging the distance) to take into consideration before hitting targets at 300 yards or more.
Additionally, making "Rifleman" with a souped-up .22 with a scope is one thing. To do the same with a centerfire battle rifle using iron sights is something totally different (this is why I did not want a patch at my first 'seed). And actual marksmanship against moving targets at 300+ yards is done with centerfire rifles... most often scoped and rested (bipod, or some other support).
7. Real distance shooting.
Appleseed claims over and over to teach how to shoot a man sized target at 500 yards. However, wind is never talked about, much less taught. How can one shoot at 500 yards and not know the first thing about reading the wind???
OK, after you go to an Appleseed and learn the fundamentals of firing the shot, it's time to train just a bit more so you are ready for real shooting. Appleseed teaches some bad habits that you need to correct, pronto.
1. Sling use.
Unless you plan to shoot competitively in smallbore or highpower, sling use should be little more than ancillary training. Use it from time to time so as not to lose the skill, but it is not combat shooting. It is not self defense shooting. It is sport shooting, plain & simple.
Next, take that sling and adjust it out to a comfortable carry position. That is its primary and best use for real life. "Home defense" firearms might be best without having a sling on them at all.
2. Mag changes.
Now that you have that silly sling off your support arm, it's time to learn how to do magazine changes correctly. Here's a hint - mag changes do not involve the trigger hand. Instead, mag changes are done with the support hand. Since we as humans tend to do as we practice, please make it a point to practice mag changes (with empty mags!) at home using the support hand (the one that used to be in that sling).
3. Sights.
Iron sights are excellent. Know how to use them. Scopes are good, too. Know how to use them as well. Practice both. Select sights that match what you intend to do. If you have a "SHTF" rifle / carbine, then make sure it has an appropriate optic on it, if need be.
Red dots are much faster at close ranges (where combat typically takes place). ACOGs are excellent combat optics. 1-4x utility scopes are also excellent choices. Backup iron sights are just that - for backup.
4. Positions.
Most combat is done standing, and at less than 50 yards... so practice that the most. Moving while shooting is essential. Reloading is also essential.
Remember the mantra: what do you call a man who, in combat, shoots offhand at 100 yards? A casualty.
Keep the sword sharp at longer distances, but realize that beyond 50 yards, kneeling or sitting is far better, and prone is often an acceptable option.
Speaking of prone, if you expect to do a lot of prone work, get a bipod. If not, learn how to shoot off a backpack. Look for other methods of resting a rifle (cars, tree branches, etc.). With an amateur shooter, a rested shot standing can be much more stable than a slung prone.
Also, don't chicken-wing. Seriously, that is for matches only. And it is far better for formed-handle rifles than for pistol grip rifles.
5. Distance shooting.
If you plan on shooting over 200 yards ever, then go practice it. Like many other things in life - it's not inherently as easy as you might think. When you do, tell me about how much more you like resting that rifle than you do shooting from "field positions."
6. Sighting in.
Do this from a bench or similar. Sand bags, bipods, and other devices are your friends. Really. Do not sight in from unsupported prone ever again, unless medically necessary!
So, now I'm off to other shooting endeavors - next up for me is pursuing some NRA designations. I wish the program well. I enjoyed the 32 hours of instruction provided. Not everybody who reads this will. I can sympathize with you, as my wife did not enjoy the entire event. I even enjoyed the hours of online sparring matches with folks I refer to as "Appleseed Zombies."
Again, if any reader wants to get the straight up scoop - I'll be happy to tell you what I think and what I've seen.
I went back in May 22 & 23 this year. Again I enjoyed it. I learned actually a lot more (though it was from an instructor's point of view more than a student's). Again, I observed some things Appleseed does that should be rectified. And this time through a more refined and understanding point of view.
Like any other program created by man, it has its benefits, and it is not perfect. I am never afraid to go "on the record" about something, and Appleseed is no different. As with any program, it is not for everybody - even though they don't always see it that way.
Like so many other things, this is a "good ol' boy's club" and they act accordingly - be aware of this, in case you dislike that type of organization. Conversely, for those who are looking for that type of association, and who want to be around like-minded folks, there are many who really enjoy the environment.
In the end, it's been an interesting ride. I've heard from many in the program. I've shared emails, phone calls, communications with fellow students, instructors, and even a few high-level people. I was an "Instructor in Training" with them. I decided to distance myself from them. Everything in between.
This will be my last post on this blog about the subject, unless a reader specifically requests an entry. Even then, I may just respond in private to save the headache. Here's a brief summary of my thoughts on Appleseed:
APPLESEED OBSERVATIONS:
PROS:
1. Appleseed does a great job with safety.
2. Appleseed will teach you the fundamentals of "field position shooting."
3. Appleseed is relatively inexpensive, and even free for some people.
4. Shooting can be done with a .22 - keeping cost and discomfort low.
5. Their instructors are passionate about the program.
6. They teach some history you likely did not learn in school.
7. Appleseed instructors, in general, can shoot well.
CONS:
1. Appleseed teaches some practices (example - mag changes) that are contrary to modern fighting doctrines.
2. Appleseed relies too much on sling usage, and not enough on proper body mechanics for shooting.
3. The program has a mentality that the "Appleseed Way" is the best / only way.
4. The program has some connections that some people find dubious.
5. Senior leadership is reluctant to accept constructive criticism.
6. Some shoots have not made exceptions for physical impairments, despite the programs' claims to accommodate.
7. They can be somewhat misleading to prospective shooters.
Let me elaborate more on "# 7" - the program being somewhat misleading. This is a two-part situation. On one hand, the published information on the program "suggests" the right thing - but does not make all of these things "mandatory." On the other hand, the folks from Appleseed are all over the gun forums, and will give poor / misleading advice to shooters asking what to bring / expect, etc.
APPLESEED SHOOTER'S SUGGESTIONS:
If you attend an Appleseed, do these things. It will make your life easier:1. Bring the things they say to bring.
2. Bring a semiautomatic rifle.
- Preferably detachable box-magazine fed (although I do have some good suggestions for tube-fed).
- Bring at least 4 magazines that hold 10 rounds or more (if legal in your area).
- Make sure it's clean.
- Bring ammo you know your rifle likes. Bring 500+ rounds.
- Use tech-sights or a scope ("trainer rifles")
- Have the proper tools to adjust your rifle's sights.
- If using a military style rifle, use factory peep sights or scope.
- Have a USGI sling that can attach to the rifle's swivels.
- Sight in your rifle with the same ammo you will be using before the Appleseed.
- Know how to clear malfunctions well.
- Know how to adjust your sights.
- Know how to change mags, load the rifle, etc.
5. Don't use the program as an intro to shooting - for you or a friend / loved one.
6. If you really want the "Rifleman" patch - play the game.
MY SUGGESTIONS TO APPLESEED:
1. Make it a requirement to bring a semiautomatic rifle.
- Minimum of two 10-round magazines.
- Allow bolt guns, lever-actions, etc. after a person has shot to a certain level.
- If you don't want to make semiautomatics mandatory, then simply lengthen the AQT times, and focus on more teaching instead of the "firehose" method.
- Suggestions for improvement do not necessarily mean an issue with an instructor.
- Suggestions for improvement do not necessarily mean a person "had a bad time."
- Issues with instructors do not necessarily mean dense students or people with "unteachable attitudes."
- Be more accommodating / more flexible.
- Treat others as you would want to be treated. Have your instructors do the same.
- Quit the "Pile-on" on the web forums and other blogs.
- Allow the negative comments as well as the positive. You'll attract more students in the end.
- Discontinue the talk "about students" behind their back. What does it accomplish?
- Instead, pose questions to the group: "how would you teach this student?"
- The teachers may not always be your best shooters, but should be "Riflemen."
- Not all who can shoot "Rifleman" are good teachers.
- Those that are not good teachers make good safety officers or line bosses.
Appleseed Hypocrisy
1. Equipment & Course of Fire:
Appleseed was based on high power shooting, as evidenced by Fred in his "How to Become a Rifleman" series. High Power shooting is done:
A. From field positions (Standing, Sitting, Kneeling, Prone).
B. With time limits (10 minutes standing; 60 seconds sitting; 70 seconds prone; 20 minutes slow-fire prone).
C. Without equipment, other than sling, glove, shooting jacket.
D. Using "service" rifles - M1, M14 (M1A), and M16 (AR15) - modifications are strictly limited.
E. At targets ranging from 100 yards to 600 yards away.
Appleseed is "scope friendly" (their words). Additionally, it is no secret that they really push the use of the GI sling as a shooting aid. Yet bipod or other rests (unless they are shooting at real distances) are not permitted. There is no logic here. And it seems that Appleseed once allowed bipods to earn the Patch, further confusing things.
Rifles of all sorts are allowed at Appleseed. They encourage .22 rifles like the Ruger 10/22 and Marlin 795 (both excellent Appleseed rifles). It is understandable to allow .22's, but since shooters are really handicapped with bolt-actions, pump-actions, and single-shots, why allow them? Make it semi-auto only... with an exception of certain bolt actions once the shooter shoots a "Rifleman" score.
As this person on www.ar15.com writes, "So two pieces of equipment, the sling and the scope, are vital, but the bipod is a crutch?"
The vast majority of folks who shoot "Rifleman" scores do so with tricked out 10/22's and big scopes. Nothing wrong with that, and it still requires skill - but as a person who can shoot the score (with and without optics, with and without a centerfire, at will with any setup), I tell you there is a huge difference in shooting the score with a tricked out gun and large optic.
A simple fact of our modern world is that we are able to use technology to overcome imperfections. Why not use simple, inexpensive pieces of equipment to assist in shooting - especially for beginners?
2. Self defense vs. sport shooting vs. field shooting.
Appleseed was based on high power shooting, as evidenced by Fred in his "How to Become a Rifleman" series. High power shooting is a sport. It used to be military training, but is no longer - save basic rifle training in the USMC.
But, many Appleseed instructors talk about how the skills transfer to self defense. That is true to an extent. About as much as "Tae Bo" is useful for training to fight (some basics apply, not very much else).
In real combat, consider a situation, that a rifleman could sling up, go prone, take aim, and shoot a target at 500 yards. Now tell me why he couldn't open up a bipod (or rest his rifle on his rucksack) instead of slinging up, and use it (likely to an even greater effect!)?
The simple fact is that sling shooting is best used in competition or practice - not in combat. And Appleseed relies on shooting with the sling... almost to the point of ignoring the simple fact that NPOA exists without the sling.
Similarly, one can easily find props for shooting while sitting and kneeling in combat. If not, then the sitting or kneeling shot probably should not be taken.
I challenge readers - especially Fred and his Appleseed cohorts - to give a real example to the contrary. If they even can, I predict it is likely to be a very unusual scenario, requiring many circumstances to fall in line correctly.
So, Appleseed instructors, in the face of this evidence, will say that the program teaches "field shooting" and the focus is on fundamental marksmanship. These statements are correct.
3. "Riflemen" ???
Here is a thread (and here's another) where a High Power shooter offers Appleseed "Riflemen" a chance to try their skills out at a real distance.
What happens?
Do they accept? (Nope.)
Are they scared? (Possibly - I don't know.)
What do they do?
Put down the person, pile on, and generally make their own program look bad.
So much so that the Appleseed's Chief Master Instructor sends out a message.
PS - yet another offer...
Also, it is well known amongst Appleseeders and their instructor corps, that most folks who have earned a "Rifleman" patch, have done so with highly modified rifles and using scopes. While it is still not easy to earn the patch that way, what has happened is that they have instructors who cannot shoot the score without the highly modified rifles and special equipment.
Some of these instructors do not know how to help students make sight adjustments. Some of these instructors have not or cannot shoot the score with a centerfire rifle, or with iron sights. Many instructors cannot consistently shoot the score, even with the tricked-out .22's!
As a matter of personal pride, the first thing a "Rifleman" patch owner should do is to shoot a 210+ with a centerfire rifle of choice. Preferably an M1, M1A, or AR15. Iron sights.
4. "Hit a man-sized target at 500 yards"
Very few Appleseeds actually shoot at real distances other than 25 meters. Very few of the instructors know much about bullet drop, wind, etc. Sure, they know "inches, minutes, clicks" - but they do not know how many inches a bullet will drop over a given range.
To be fair, it would be quite a feat for a regular person to commit to memory all bullet trajectories. However, Appleseed instructors should, at the very least, know the drop for "mil-spec" ammo out of the M1, M14, and M16/M4 family of rifles with USGI or comparable ammunition.
A common retort that Appleseed Zombies will give when confronted about the lack of real distance shooting is: "well, if you can't hit at 25 yards, you sure won't be able to hit at a real distance." While this statement is true - it is also a very obvious attempt to cover this weakness in the program. And it does not address the fact that most Appleseeds do not shoot out to 500 yards.
Sadly, there are a number of "Riflemen," IITs (Instructors in Training - "Orange Hats"), and even Red Hat instructors who have never shot past 100 yards. How can you teach someone to "shoot to 500 yards" when you've never done it yourself?
Appleseed AQT Truths
Much has been written about the Appleseed "AQT" (Army Qualification Test). Much myth has come up around it. Fact is, the Appleseed AQT is not in use by the Army, and never was. Fact is, even the USMC's Known Distance ("KD") shooting has substantial differences. So why the AQT? And where did it come from? And why is the scoring the way it is? And why is "Rifleman" set at 210?
"Fred" is the creator of both Appleseed and the Appleseed AQT. While the AQT is certainly an amalgam, with several points of influence, when one takes all facts into consideration, it really becomes quite clear. "Fred" was never in the USMC. He states that he was in the Army, and given the timeline, he would have shot a COF substantially different to what the AQT is. It would have more closely resembled the current "Trainfire" type shooting - targets at 50 - 300 meters, that pop up. 40 shots, total.
Course of fire:
"Fred" was, however, an administrator for an NRA Highpower range, and was a highpower shooter. The Appleseed AQT draws very heavily on the HP course of fire - hence the four stages and the nearly identical timing.
It would seem "Fred" borrowed the Army Alt-C silhouettes, and cut them off for a "head and shoulders" effect. The similarity is astounding. However, almost no other element of the AQT seems to borrow directly from the military. Instead, it borrows more directly from highpower competition rules.
Timing:
NRA Highpower stages are timed as follows:
Standing (slow) - 20 minutes
Sitting (rapid) - 60 seconds
Prone (rapid) - 70 seconds
Prone (slow) - 20 minutes.
Appleseed stages are:
Standing (slow) - 2 minutes
Sitting (rapid) - 55 seconds
Prone (rapid) - 65 seconds
Prone (slow) - 5 minutes.
It is fairly obvious that in order to shorten the clinic, "Fred" chopped the slow fire times down a bit.
Scoring:
As for the AQT scoring, let's go back to NRA Highpower to find the real inspiration. In HP competition, the "black" area contains the 8-ring, 9-ring, and 10-ring (which, in turn, houses the x-ring). On any given shot, the maximum, score is 10 points. Anything in the black is at least 80% of that point value.
Notice that on the AQT, any shot in the black is at least 80% of the possible point value. The targets happen to be silhouettes that represent a man-sized target at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.
NOTE: If a shooter places every shot in the black on the AQT, the lowest possible score is 200.
That's important to know and here's why: "Fred's" first incarnation of the AQT is four large sheets of paper. One sheet each for 100 yards, 200, 300, and 400:
- There is still only a single 100-yard target on page 1.
- There are five 200-yard targets on page two. Each is to be shot twice.
- There are five 300-yard targets on page three. Each is to be shot twice. There is also a "sighter target" which may be used to sight in with two shots.
- Page four has ten 400-yard targets, and a sighter target. Each is to be shot twice.
On this original "Fred" AQT, the rifleman standard was 80% - or 200 points out of 250. Or, put this way - keeping everything in "the black" on a similar COF to NRA Highpower.
But why 210?
Easy. Shooting at four sheets of paper is cumbersome, so "Fred" consolidated the "AQT" into a single page. This took out some of the NPOA shifts, so he decided to raise the score needed to qualify - in an attempt to take luck out of the equation. He says this in "Fred's Guide to Becoming a Rifleman."
How did the number 210 come from it? We do not know for sure, but an easy possibility goes like this:
The difference between shooting a 200 and a 210 would be to make at least one "5" point score on each of the QDAQT's targets instead of "just" a 4.
Why I write this:
Why I write about Appleseed:As quoted here:
"What I’m seeing is a lot of people who are unable to accept valid criticism and input, and that sets off alarm bells. These aren’t the people I want representing the gun culture. I have one basic litmus test for determining whether a person or organization is the kind of person I want to work with or not: Are you looking for allies, or are you looking for heretics? When I get a whiff of the latter, alarm bells go off, and my skepticism get raised."
And here:
"Getting new people into the community is vitally important. Arguably the most important thing we can do. I don’t blame anyone for wanting to get involved in something like that, and applaud them for doing so. But I think it’s so important that those doing so be open to criticism and suggestion from the broader community, because ultimately this issue is about a lot more than just Appleseed, and it’s certainly about a lot more than “Fred”. If we’re failing in a key aspect of outreach, we all suffer for that. It’s important, critically important, to get it right."
To sum up:
1. They have a good idea.
2. There is some suspect packaging - some might say "eclectic" - they should work to remove it.
3. Accept criticisms!
4. We are all in this together - work with the rest of us - not against us!
Why others don't
You will be hard pressed to find many objective things written about Appleseed online. You'll be harder pressed to find negative things written about them. Despite the moaning of the Appleseed Zombies, what I write is not negative toward the program. I offer pros and cons, and even suggestions for improvement.
If I wished the program ill-will, I'd suggest people not go. I'd say bad things about them. I'd generally leave it alone after a while.
But you won't see many others write like I do on the internet about Appleseed. Generally, this is due to just a few broad reasons:
1. For most who attend, Appleseed is their only formal training.
These people are not about to "bash" (or do anything remotely close to it) a program that is the only formal knowledge they have. This results in these people not being able to see the forest for the trees. They wouldn't be able to critically analyze what they do for the life of them.
2. Appleseed is their "boy's club."
I've seen this is martial arts time and time again. In the martial arts, you have a black belt who has a rank, and that rank means everything to this person. They define themselves by this. Appleseed is no different. There are "ranks" ("Rifleman," "IIT," "Red Hat," "Green Hat," Master Instructor") that can be earned. Some of these ranks come with little or no improvement in physical skill, but earn the owner additional "respect" of the other members.
3. Folks who didn't enjoy it are not gun nuts.
This is by far the largest group. At the first Appleseed I attended, I spoke with nearly a dozen people who did not particularly care for the program. A lot of them have been turned sour to shooting. These were largely the people who were new to shooting. These people will not be on gun forums. They aren't getting online and talking about it at all.
The folks that were already into shooting, and enjoyed it (as I did), will migrate eventually to group #1 or group #2. There are a very few of us that look at things objectively and do not fall into either. There are a very few others that enjoy guns & shooting, but did not like or particularly care for Appleseed, but examples of these people are rare. I know of a handful at best.
4. Appleseeders who feel as I do, but cannot speak out.
This group is larger than you might think. I've been in contact with literally hundreds of Appleseed instructors (mostly IIT's, and a few Red Hats) who communicate with me that they feel as I do, but know they cannot change the program.At the time of this edit (2/17/2011) Appleseed claims over 1100 instructors - and I have spoken with nearly 20% of them to one extent or another - the vast majority of them feel as I do.
Some of these folks run their local Appleseeds differently.. .and for the better. Some of them are like me - perpetual students, always looking to perfect their craft. Many of them were initially put off by some of my comments, but then saw things as they really were.
WHAT APPLESEED DOES RIGHT
Appleseed does many things right. Here they are:
1. Appleseed helps get Americans off the couch.
Cheap, easily accessible training are two major advantages Appleseed offers, compared to most firearms training.
2. Appleseed Teaches history.
Sometimes they get the history largely correct. Sometimes they take artistic license. It's all better than what is taught in most schools these days.
3. Appleseed is cheap.
Yes, NRA High Power clinics are often cheaper. But still, $70 is not a lot for a weekend of training. Martial arts seminars are often twice that price. Other types of training in other disciplines are comparable, or frequently higher.
4. Appleseed is easy.
Yes, many people complain of the physical demands. Most of these people live sedentary lifestyles. Neither my wife, nor myself experienced soreness or exhaustion, and neither of us is in top physical shape. However, compared to a weekend martial arts seminar, the activity is very moderate.
5. Appleseed is safe.
Safety is their primary concern. They have safety steps that, when followed, allow for several levels of failure before there is actual risk. The overwhelming majority of their instructors keep safety as the first priority, and when dealing with firearms, that is OK with me.
6. Six steps to firing the shot.
The six steps are fundamental. As Appleseed teaches them, they are correct and necessary for accuracy.
WHAT APPLESEED DOES WRONG
Despite their insistence, Appleseed passes along several critical errors to shooters. Because none of the errors are in the safety arena, they can be overcome at the sole expense of convenience.
1. Sighting in.
Appleseed has students sight in from unsupported prone. NRA Masters and High Masters can do this. Folks who have never taken a training class before cannot.
Sighting in should be done from a fully supported position, so as to take the human element out of it as much as possible.
2. Overuse of sling.
The sling is a good shooting aid. Its practical uses are limited to competitions - usually NRA High Power, CMP matches and smallbore matches. The last documented use of a sling in combat was WWII, and even then, there is only one such documented instance.
Recreational shooters with access to ranges that allow field positions can also use the sling. However, AS instructors often cite "the ability to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards" as one of the skills taught. The obvious insinuation is that sling shooting makes such shots practical. This, while technically correct, is misleading in its intent.
3. Field positions.
The field positions, as taught, are highly impractical for any shooting other than competitions, or recreational target practice.
Practical shooting from standing is done while on the move, usually to get the enemy to take cover so that you can move from one place of cover to another.
Practical shooting from sitting is actually the closest that Appleseed comes to practical. This is for shooting targets from about 50 yards up to 150-200 yards.
Practical shooting from prone is done from a support - rucksack, bipod, or other rest should be used for long distance (over 200 yards). Unsupported, unslung prone is very useful on targets 75-200 yards away. AS dismisses unslung prone shooting, and this is a mistake.
4. Magazine changes.
NRA High Power, Smallbore, and similar competitions keep the same format as Appleseed - fire 2, mag change, fire 8 - on stages 2 and 3 of the AQT. The USMC used to do this, too. In 2005, the USMC changed the Known Distance (KD) course of fire to allow Marine recruits to fire 10 straight from a single magazine in the second and third stages.
Why? Because mag changes should not be done with the trigger hand! This was confusing Marine recruits who, when finished with the basic KD course, would go to infantry school and learn tactical magazine changes - which are done with the support hand.
5. Reluctant to change.
As discussed before, the Appleseed leadership is reluctant to change. In a changing world, this is a death-sentence.
6. Practicality.
The field positions, mag changes, time limits and other factors are all proven to be counter-intuitive to actual practical defensive shooting. Add in the fact that sighting in is done incorrectly, and the cult-like following of the organization. Add to that how they hold up the "Rifleman" patch, and it gets new shooters thinking they've got a "Jedi Black Belt" in shooting, when many of them have a hard time rolling off the couch.
To add to it, the shooting is done predominantly from 25 meters. To be sure, hitting a 1" square at that range is no easy matter. However, there are many more things (wind, mirage, gauging the distance) to take into consideration before hitting targets at 300 yards or more.
Additionally, making "Rifleman" with a souped-up .22 with a scope is one thing. To do the same with a centerfire battle rifle using iron sights is something totally different (this is why I did not want a patch at my first 'seed). And actual marksmanship against moving targets at 300+ yards is done with centerfire rifles... most often scoped and rested (bipod, or some other support).
7. Real distance shooting.
Appleseed claims over and over to teach how to shoot a man sized target at 500 yards. However, wind is never talked about, much less taught. How can one shoot at 500 yards and not know the first thing about reading the wind???
CORRECTING THE MISTAKES
OK, after you go to an Appleseed and learn the fundamentals of firing the shot, it's time to train just a bit more so you are ready for real shooting. Appleseed teaches some bad habits that you need to correct, pronto.
1. Sling use.
Unless you plan to shoot competitively in smallbore or highpower, sling use should be little more than ancillary training. Use it from time to time so as not to lose the skill, but it is not combat shooting. It is not self defense shooting. It is sport shooting, plain & simple.
Next, take that sling and adjust it out to a comfortable carry position. That is its primary and best use for real life. "Home defense" firearms might be best without having a sling on them at all.
2. Mag changes.
Now that you have that silly sling off your support arm, it's time to learn how to do magazine changes correctly. Here's a hint - mag changes do not involve the trigger hand. Instead, mag changes are done with the support hand. Since we as humans tend to do as we practice, please make it a point to practice mag changes (with empty mags!) at home using the support hand (the one that used to be in that sling).
3. Sights.
Iron sights are excellent. Know how to use them. Scopes are good, too. Know how to use them as well. Practice both. Select sights that match what you intend to do. If you have a "SHTF" rifle / carbine, then make sure it has an appropriate optic on it, if need be.
Red dots are much faster at close ranges (where combat typically takes place). ACOGs are excellent combat optics. 1-4x utility scopes are also excellent choices. Backup iron sights are just that - for backup.
4. Positions.
Most combat is done standing, and at less than 50 yards... so practice that the most. Moving while shooting is essential. Reloading is also essential.
Remember the mantra: what do you call a man who, in combat, shoots offhand at 100 yards? A casualty.
Keep the sword sharp at longer distances, but realize that beyond 50 yards, kneeling or sitting is far better, and prone is often an acceptable option.
Speaking of prone, if you expect to do a lot of prone work, get a bipod. If not, learn how to shoot off a backpack. Look for other methods of resting a rifle (cars, tree branches, etc.). With an amateur shooter, a rested shot standing can be much more stable than a slung prone.
Also, don't chicken-wing. Seriously, that is for matches only. And it is far better for formed-handle rifles than for pistol grip rifles.
5. Distance shooting.
If you plan on shooting over 200 yards ever, then go practice it. Like many other things in life - it's not inherently as easy as you might think. When you do, tell me about how much more you like resting that rifle than you do shooting from "field positions."
6. Sighting in.
Do this from a bench or similar. Sand bags, bipods, and other devices are your friends. Really. Do not sight in from unsupported prone ever again, unless medically necessary!
In Closing
So, now I'm off to other shooting endeavors - next up for me is pursuing some NRA designations. I wish the program well. I enjoyed the 32 hours of instruction provided. Not everybody who reads this will. I can sympathize with you, as my wife did not enjoy the entire event. I even enjoyed the hours of online sparring matches with folks I refer to as "Appleseed Zombies."
Again, if any reader wants to get the straight up scoop - I'll be happy to tell you what I think and what I've seen.
What a load of s***! Eclectic my a**. Yyou know its not sport shooting, too! I cant believe the lies you are telling! F***ing moron!
ReplyDeleteFirst, thank you for helping me exercise my right to edit for language.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I didn't make Appleseed - "Fred" did. Since he was never in the Marines, but was an avid HP shooter, you should take it up with him as to why it is based on sport shooting.
Third - do you intend responses like that to actually attract more students? If so... good luck with that plan.
To other readers - this right here is why I bowed out of the organization.
I was planning on attending a shoot this fall, and probably still will. I want to experience it myself.
ReplyDeleteI found your criticism well thought-out and logical. I, too, would like to see a program that encourages marksmanship for ordinary Americans. I think tapping into our history is a great hook for this.
I'd also like to thank you for all your thorough AARs on Appleseed. It's difficult to actually find out what happens at the shoots without going to one. I'd prefer to be prepared ahead of time.
Already, I've got an LTR assembled, sling and sights installed, and I'm practicing positions and sling use. My first few times with the sling were horrible. I'm slowing starting to understand sling manipulation. I also want to shoot well without the sling, but figured I'd start with more support.
I do understand your concern for saying one thing and pursuing another. Yet I think in our current environment, some subjects are considered so extreme that you need to downplay your association for fear of being categorized with the truly extreme.
Like I said, I'll probably still go. I'm interested in becoming a better shooter. I'm hoping Appleseed will help with that.
-kakashi
I attended one of these. The program was rushed. The instructors knew the material "textbook" - and that was good.
ReplyDeleteBut I saw some major problems. They kept referring to being able to hit man sized targets at 500 yards. They kept saying it was good to be able to do this for self defense. But what they showed was not self defense. Maybe somebody could use some of it on a rare occasion.
Another problem happened right next to me. A young man (maybe 13-15?) needed to adjust his sights. He was printing decent groups, but they wanted his groups to be even smaller before he adjusted his sights. The young man did not come back the next day. I don't blame him.
This leads me to the final problem. The Appleseed I went to had over twenty people the first day, and not even a dozen on the second day. I knew several of the people personally, and they did not come back because they were just plain dissatisfied. They found it too fast, too furious, and unwilling to do things right. And the main part they all said was done wrong was the sighting in - just like you said, Usagi.
I really hope the powers that be in Appleseed find this blog, and really take the matter to heart. I think their hearts are in the right place, but they might just be too caught up in seeing the program for what they want it to be and not for what it is.
All ya have to do is look online and see the reviews - not one bad word is allowed, or the reviewer gets jumped on. That is a red flag.
ReplyDeleteThe Nazis and the Communists were real bad about not allowing negative talk about their regimes. Appleseed is the same, but they are supposed to be saving America?
Usagi,
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me for remaining anonymous, but after some things I've seen Appleseed people do and say to you and others on several forums, I think I'll just keep as far away from that crazy group as possible.
I have been to more than one Appleseed event. I've shot rifleman scores with several rifles, .22's and centerfires and even a M1. Maybe I've been to one of their "Boot Camps." Maybe not. :)
Appleseed is great traditional rifle marksmanship training program. It is just fine for a foundation of basic skills and technique for shooters to build upon, beginners and experienced alike. What Appleseed isn't, though, is combat training for a modern combat theater. Nor do the stances and particular skills translate well.
My Platoon Sergeant said his troops were Appleseed trained before deployment and related the following to me: "It was hell trying to re-train a battalion full of troops to shoot in a non-linear combat environment and use proper cover / concealment. It is dangerous to see some solder standing in the open there in an NRA Highpower stance with his big stupid chicken wing up shooting an M4 because 'that's what the Appleseed guys said to do'."
I don't think Appleseed directly markets itself as combat training. In fact, Usagi, you said they will shy away from that when asked directly. However, without a doubt, methods and tactics they teach are directly contradictory to sound gunfighting doctrine. The sling is not useful outside of NRA Highpower competition.
I disagree with what you have said in some places, Usagi, that the sling is good for personal training. Since you fight like you train, I'd never use anything other than an occasional hasty sling. Even then, I'd look to see if I could use something else. Of course, I make this disagreement statement with the utmost respect, as from what I can tell, you are a much better than average marksman. lol
Anyways, that's my thoughts. I think you touched on all the topics in great detail and I think you are accurate on all counts except the sling. And Appleseed does rely on the sling too much, but you would expect that from former NRA Highpower influence.
-shootn4real
To the readers of this blog:
ReplyDeleteI found something that I'll copy & paste here. Kinda sums things up real good:
"Wow, single type of rifle, lots of modifications required, people having to attend multiple events to attain a badge of honor (and they are not good enough until they do), restrictive COF that often results in new shooters thinking they are not good enough and this sport is not fun...
Good work Appleseed, it sounds to me like you took a GREAT idea and f***ed it up."
I'd add - or they say "run what ya brung" which is even worse because then people bring a rifle that won't fit the restrictive COF.
I found everything written here to be correct. Former Red Hat here. It is well known "on the inside" that the biggest problem is His Fredness himself. At the end, it will be Fred that kills it.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, as Usagi has said here, that like attracts like. The only people that will stay are either those like Fred, or willing to put up with that sort. That has and will continue to unravel the program.
-JR
I shot rifleman some time ago. I agree completely with your assessment.
ReplyDeleteI learned a lot but appleseed's curriculum is flawed.