Appleseed Suggestions
Appleseed is generally a good program, but it has some flaws. Below I propose some changes that they should make.
If Appleseed does not change anything, it is likely because they, as an organization, are unwilling to listen to suggestions and criticisms. That is fine, but in this case, I would then make suggestions to anyone going to attend an Appleseed.
Prepare as they say to prepare.
Be mindful of people on the internet - specifically those from Appleseed - giving open advice. Some of this advice can be correct. Much of it is misleading.
1. Make sure the attendee has been out shooting before.
Different people acclimate at different speeds, but I would say a good rule of thumb might be 3-5 times shooting, at a minimum - more for some folks. Preferably with the same type rifle they will be shooting.
2. Make sure the attendee is familiar with the rifle he/she will be using.
Know how to work the rifle. Know how to clear jams, do mag changes, etc. Appleseeds are not tactical training.
3. Bring a semi-automatic rifle. Preferably a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795.
Bring 5 magazines, preferable (2 minimum). Sight in the rifle with the exact same ammo you intend to use.
Do not bring a bolt gun or lever gun, until you have shot Rifleman with a semi-auto.
1. Don't bring a new shooter.
2. Don't bring a bolt action, lever action, pump action, or single shot.
3. Don't bring folks who are unaccustomed to the outdoors.
The AQT was designed directly from the NRA highpower course of fire. "Fred" (founder of Appleseed) made a few modifications, and the product we see now was born.
Since Fred created the AQT, he has made a few user-friendly modifications that help newer shooters - allowing scopes, shooting only at 25 meters, and others. Also, the type of rifle that can be used at an Appleseed is generally not limited, so many people bring highly customized and tuned rifles so as to reduce the mechanical error.
While this all goes against the grain of "rack-grade rifle, iron sights at 500 yards," the simple fact is that a good player plays to the limits of the rules as written. To score a patch, most people use a highly modified rifle, so why not? After all, it is only a game - not real combat shooting. Play the game!
1. Time limits.
The current time limits are based on NRA High Power competitions. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but for new shooters, this is not only daunting, but frustrating.
As proof, go look at Appleseed's AAR's (After Action Reports). Many first-day 'Appleseeders' do not return the second day often due to frustration or perceived misrepresentation of skills taught. From information I have gathered, it is not uncommon to have 25% or more leave the Appleseed early.
Appleseed should extend / eliminate timed portions of the AQT. 90-120 seconds per stage would be just right.
2. Sight in from a supported position.
Sighting in from unsupported prone is for NRA High Power masters and high masters. Every other application should use supported prone or a bench. It's just too unreliable for new / inexperienced shooters to sight in from unsupported prone. Too much human error.
3. Change the amount taught.
Either increase the material and make a "Part 1" and "Part 2."
Or reduce the material and make it more mainstream.
Alternately, do not advertise to new shooters.
4. Award more patches / awards that are more visible.
(BUT, do not change the qualifications for "Rifleman")
The Rifleman patch should remain as it is. However, adding other achievement levels will only help, not hurt.
If Appleseed does not change anything, it is likely because they, as an organization, are unwilling to listen to suggestions and criticisms. That is fine, but in this case, I would then make suggestions to anyone going to attend an Appleseed.
What to Expect
Bring what Appleseed website says to bring.Prepare as they say to prepare.
Be mindful of people on the internet - specifically those from Appleseed - giving open advice. Some of this advice can be correct. Much of it is misleading.
Do's:
1. Make sure the attendee has been out shooting before.
Different people acclimate at different speeds, but I would say a good rule of thumb might be 3-5 times shooting, at a minimum - more for some folks. Preferably with the same type rifle they will be shooting.
2. Make sure the attendee is familiar with the rifle he/she will be using.
Know how to work the rifle. Know how to clear jams, do mag changes, etc. Appleseeds are not tactical training.
3. Bring a semi-automatic rifle. Preferably a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795.
Bring 5 magazines, preferable (2 minimum). Sight in the rifle with the exact same ammo you intend to use.
Do not bring a bolt gun or lever gun, until you have shot Rifleman with a semi-auto.
Dont's:
1. Don't bring a new shooter.
2. Don't bring a bolt action, lever action, pump action, or single shot.
3. Don't bring folks who are unaccustomed to the outdoors.
Play The AQT Game:
The AQT was designed directly from the NRA highpower course of fire. "Fred" (founder of Appleseed) made a few modifications, and the product we see now was born.
Since Fred created the AQT, he has made a few user-friendly modifications that help newer shooters - allowing scopes, shooting only at 25 meters, and others. Also, the type of rifle that can be used at an Appleseed is generally not limited, so many people bring highly customized and tuned rifles so as to reduce the mechanical error.
While this all goes against the grain of "rack-grade rifle, iron sights at 500 yards," the simple fact is that a good player plays to the limits of the rules as written. To score a patch, most people use a highly modified rifle, so why not? After all, it is only a game - not real combat shooting. Play the game!
WHAT APPLESEED SHOULD CHANGE
1. Time limits.
The current time limits are based on NRA High Power competitions. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but for new shooters, this is not only daunting, but frustrating.
As proof, go look at Appleseed's AAR's (After Action Reports). Many first-day 'Appleseeders' do not return the second day often due to frustration or perceived misrepresentation of skills taught. From information I have gathered, it is not uncommon to have 25% or more leave the Appleseed early.
Appleseed should extend / eliminate timed portions of the AQT. 90-120 seconds per stage would be just right.
2. Sight in from a supported position.
Sighting in from unsupported prone is for NRA High Power masters and high masters. Every other application should use supported prone or a bench. It's just too unreliable for new / inexperienced shooters to sight in from unsupported prone. Too much human error.
3. Change the amount taught.
Either increase the material and make a "Part 1" and "Part 2."
Or reduce the material and make it more mainstream.
Alternately, do not advertise to new shooters.
4. Award more patches / awards that are more visible.
(BUT, do not change the qualifications for "Rifleman")
The Rifleman patch should remain as it is. However, adding other achievement levels will only help, not hurt.
Interesting point of view on the program.
ReplyDeleteI am an instructor with Appleseed. You say you have never seen anyone shoot expert w/o the sling. I saw a 13 year old kid do it in May/09 with a stock Ruger 10/22.
Anon - other than myself, this would be only the second such case I've heard of. Send me details, and I'll be happy to publish the story.
ReplyDeleteJust goes to show, again, that NPOA exists without the sling.
4. Award more patches / awards that are more visible, BUT,
ReplyDeletedo not change the qualifications for "Rifleman"
No need to give awards for those that do not meet the standards of Rifleman. This type of progressive/liberal/NEA idea has invaded or school system and raised a generation of brats that think the should be rewarded for failure.
This Anonymous (4.) post, really irked me.
Delete[No need to give awards for those that do not meet the standards of Rifleman. This type of progressive/liberal/NEA idea has invaded or school system and raised a generation of brats that think the should be rewarded for failure.]
Are you serious? How is shooting a score of Marksman or Sharpshooter a failure?
Joe M,
DeleteAgain, thank you for reading the blog.
Very interesting the responses from the AS folks. These and other comments appear to have been based in the reader reading part of the article, then lashing out.
I dare say that millions of Soldiers and Marines who "only" qualified as Marksmen or Sharpshooters would agree with you, Joe M, and would disagree with anonymous here.
As an interesting side note, I wonder how many MOH recipients actually qualified "expert"?
[As an interesting side note, I wonder how many MOH recipients actually qualified "expert"?]
DeleteThat is a very good question. One that I do not have an answer for, though not all could have fired Expert in boot camp. To me it would seem the odds would be against that.
If the Anonymous poster above is an AS instructor, that is a very poor additude towards those that may give the AS program a try. Just another signal in my book that tells me this is not a program I would care to be part of.
The US Army, and the USMC both award designations of "Marksman," "Sharpshooter," and "Expert." I didn't get the idea from the NEA.
ReplyDeleteI would reference IAAR's (Internal After Action Reports), but I no longer have access. Once you get to Orange Hat, look through them... then get back to me.
ReplyDeleteThe instructors know why most folks don't come back.
In fact, I have evidence from very high ranking AS folks that are equally as upset about this as I am. They got into it with Fred recently... and this was one of the core reasons.
You missed the point entirely. Read what I wrote. It's no how many don't show up on Sunday, but why. Your assumption that it is due to frustration, is an opinion supported with Anecdotal evidence. I've read through the info from your links and it's more of the same. Draw conclusions as you will but if you or the Appleseed really want to improve the program, I suggest they actually get a statistically valid sample of likes and dislikes from participants after the event. Then they can draw some sound conclusions on how to improve the program. You sound like an educated person, why would you want to take a guess and go off half cocked?
ReplyDeletePlease take your own advice. Read what is written. Internalize it. Try to understand it.
ReplyDeleteI explained why people do not return. I explained how folks in the program are frustrated with that.
I cannot provide exact statistics, as I no longer have internal access. However, once you get it, you can see for yourself.
The Appleseed that you so want to change, is not rifle specific, but training specific. You disagree with the training regiment, and have decided to not follow specific elements of it. Good for you. You have further decided to convince others of the superiority of your point of view, and so persuade them, to follow your lead. You have further attempted to convince the Appleseed program of their folly, and their need to change their practices. You have said "the dream will die" supposedly if they don't follow your suggested changes to their program. Great, but I think the success of the program has proven you wrong. It isn't dead or dying. It's growing, along with the number of people aware of and successfully using a sling to improve their accuracy. You suggest the teaching of the sling should be reduced or eliminated completely. It’s your BLOG (bullshit log) so take the last word as I’m sure you will. This vet is at ETS for this thread.
ReplyDeleteFact is, my friend, that Appleseed has hit a plateau. They have saturated their niche. Yet they claim to want to attract everyone. This is not so.
ReplyDeleteIn a business, after the plateau is the downfall. I hate it, but these are facts of nature... not just something I want to have happen.
I suggest that even with what few additional appleseeds there are, many of the participants are multiple-shoot attendees, and this further nullifies their results.
Their practices are archaic, and if they do not change, they will die. Sling shooting is not an end-all-be-all as you and AS would suggest. They need to become mainstream if they want to be mainstream.
(1) By joinng the organzaton, I mean become an instructor. Work to change the practices of the Appleseed program from within, not just jaw bone it from a BLOG.
ReplyDelete(2) I'm glad you recognize some of the shortcommings of the M16/M4 platform, but your assertion that it is inaccurate beyond 300 meters is not based in fact. Have you forgoten one branch trains raw recruites to shoot with some of the oldest rifles in servce, and at 500 meters?
(3) The Army stoped trainng the sling not because its use was impractical or that it fails as a practical tool in combat, but because they changed their tactics from aimed fire to volumes of supressive fire.
Again, I'm glad you were able to qualfy without the use of the sling. Your marksmanship abilities must be outstanding, but your assertion it's an impractical tool for todays combat arms only demonstrates some of the shortcommings of the M16/M4 platform, not the shortcommings of the sling. You are doing a disservice to those unskilled in marksmanship but implying its use is not needed, or in some way not an aid to accuracy.
1) I was an instructor. They do not listen to their instructors. With a public BLOG, they must either destroy my arguments, or address them. Since my arguments are based in fact, they will eventually have to be addressed.
ReplyDelete2) An M16 or AR 15 can be quite accurate out to about 800 meters. The M4 is not the best example of that, though, since rounds often keyhole after 300 meters, and groups open up beyond 4 MOA.
3) That may be so, but the last recorded instance of sling use in combat happened in WWII. Trying to take a sport-shooting approach to combat is not only ill-advised, it can be fatal.
Qualifying without the sling is not outstanding - it is possible for anyone. Doing so does not point out any shortcomings on the AR platform. This argument just shows your bias toward the M1 / M14 platform.
Also, I never stated that a sling is not an aid for accuracy - it most certainly can be used as a crutch for accuracy. :)
I'm not your friend. Glad to see you are now onboard with all of the training points of the appleseed program.
ReplyDeleteAs is so often the case, the reading skills of the Appleseed clan are questionable, at best.
ReplyDeleteI'm an old Jar-head. Calling a shooting sport or recreational setting in civilian life the same as combat is just silly. It is akin to owning your own ninja outfit with nunchuks and throwing stars, just in case the SHTF. It's the same vibe I get from Appleseed. This is one reason that HP (which Appleseed was OBVIOUSLY based on) doesn't appeal to the masses.
ReplyDeleteMr. Usagi,
ReplyDeleteTo say your posts on Appleseed are interesting is an understatement. At first, I wanted to lash out. But I read twice and I'll post just once. The biggest error you make is in drawing a comparison between Appleseed and Highpower.
Appleseed gets someone to the point where they could handle a rifle in an HP match and make a decent showing. It is NOT HP training, and someone who has been through it will not make master the next day. Hopefully they will be interested enough in rifle shooting that they will move forward. This is where I see the true value in Appleseed.
Neat post. Only problem I see is that if AS is "NOT HP training" (your words), then why do you think the training equates so perfectly?
ReplyDeleteI'll state the facts again - some of which may not be in the blog post (I'll change that!), but in my comments here below:
"Fred" never learned this type of shooting in the military. He was a HP shooter. That's where he got it. That is the origin.
My personal opinion of AS is that they need to drop the made up "military" approach, and teach marksmanship on a level that is beneficial to all who may attend one of these events.
ReplyDeleteThe targets are fun to shoot and challenging, no doubt about it. Award those who shoot Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert. That's how the real Army does it. Take a lesson and learn.
(By the way; You're only a cook in the Army if you choose to be one. Riflemanship has nothing to do with it. Everyone in the military must shoot at least the level of Marksman to be a Rifleman, otherwise you're out!!!
As for AS instructors; if you're not NRA qualified, you're just another Joe giving out shooting tips for "X" amount of dollars.
Usagi touches on some very good points about the AS program. Learn from this.
Joe M,
ReplyDeleteFirst, thank you for reading the blog. I hope you have found some worthwhile information here.
Good points and observations. I appreciate the fact that you clearly read the written words before forming an opinion.
compressing a weeks worth of what amounts to USMC rifle marksmanship into 2 days with the idiotic transitions and timed AQts is not conducive to learning. it hurries the student too much which leads to frustration and discontent. USMC doesn't even do the idiotic mag change anymore.
ReplyDeleteappleseed should be focused in my opinion on getting the group size down. forget the AQTs. the damn thing is only useful if I am trying to kill Chicoms coming up the hill with my M1A from 400 yards. the AQT wastes valuable learning time.
Appleseed should be broken up into 2 weekends, an Appleseed 1 which is all about the 6 steps to firing the shot and appleseed 2 where the AQT is shot for score.
you know what would be even more useful than an AQT? teaching the students how to judge distance and wind. most people can't look at a target and tell you how far away it is.
teach the 6 steps, squeeze the groups down, and teach judging distance and doping wind. you do that and you'll get alot more real rifleman.